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Why did they need to get rid of him?
Thursday, March 16, 2006
  How the National Health Service helped Nina Anne Clayton


When Nina Anne Clayton and her younger daughter Rosemary Alice Cheesman decided that Ralph Winstanley was no longer of use to them, they called in the National Health Service.
They had taken all his money; he was becoming a burden; he was getting old.

The friendly local arm of the NHS, in Doncaster, sent its army of worker ants, its ‘highly professional’ doctors and nurses – and one doctor who had control of Ralph Winstanley’s health but ‘unfortunately couldn’t be present’ to help him die. However, Dr Kevin Lee, of Danum Doctors Services Limited, in his letter to Mrs Elizabeth Hedge of Doncaster East and Central Primary Care Trusts, on 18th May 2004, states:

‘He was a man with multiple terminal pathologies who had already received a terminal prognosis by his own GP..’

One or two ‘minor’ lies were told by Nina Anne Clayton and her younger daughter, Rosemary Alice Cheesman:

"he has heart failure"
"he is dying of cancer"
"he’s in terrible pain and being dreadfully sick and is fetching up blood"

And within 6 days none of that was true. It never had been true. But he was dead.

He died of an overdose of the National Health Service Doncaster East and Central PCT branch.. with a little vital help from the local Hospice ‘professionals’.

Danum Doctors Services Limited – the on-call doctor service – was delighted to help by providing ready access to drugs, which ‘took him out of his misery’. This was not seen as an important enough job to involve a doctor actually calling to see ‘the patient’. After all ‘the patient’ was dying, wasn’t he?

He must have been dying. His wife and step-daughter said so. (Medically trained? No! Why should his wife and step-daughter need to be medically trained? He was in the way, wasn’t he?)

How it Happened – and Who was Involved

18.04.2004

06.18 – Nina Clayton made a private phone call to Danum Doctors Services Limited, stating that her husband was:

‘terminally ill, getting worse, not mobile, stopped eating’.

06.40
Also, in his letter of 18th May 2004 Dr Kevin Lee, of Danum Doctors Services Limited, also stated that, when he rang back at 06.40, ‘Mrs Winstanley’ told him:

‘that her husband who was suffering from multiple terminal pathologies including chronic leukaemia, heart failure, stomach nodules and low protein had been seen the previous Friday by Dr David Brown his GP. Dr Brown had given Mr Winstanley a terminal prognosis and had commenced Oramorph (Morphine-by-mouth) at a dose of 10mg/5ml 10ml every 4 hours, (120mg in 24 hours).’

07.09
Because of that conversation with Nina Clayton (who called herself Mrs Winstanley for Court apperances and inquests), Dr Kevin Lee decided that Ralph Winstanley had:

‘terminal agitation’.

(He must be a very clever man to have worked that out without ever seeing ‘the patient’.)

With that diagnosis, he sent Sister Szadrozny out to assess ‘the patient’. He prescribed

‘Diamorphine 10mg stat (by injection) via syringe-driver, (8 ampoules)
Haloperidol 5mg stat (by injection) and 5mg via syringe-driver’

(Without ever seeing the patient?)

09.00
Ralph Winstanley was seen and assessed by Sister Szadrozny, who arrived with Nursing Assistant Marie Hallam. Because Dr Kevin Lee had told her that Ralph Winstanley was terminally ill and had heart failure, she turned up with the drugs to inject into Ralph Winstanley.
(Her ‘assessment’ must surely have been slightly clouded by the information, which she had already received and by the drugs which had already been prescribed?)

Ralph Winstanley was injected with Diamorphine and Haloperidol. Sister Szadrozny reported back to Dr Kevin Lee about what she had been told by Nina Ann Clayton and her daughter, Rosemary Alice Cheesman. This compounded the problem. However, Ralph Winstanley did not protest much as these needles went into him.

He was as high as a kite on Morphine-by-mouth – and had been for four days. Even so, he was walking-sitting-standing, completely unaided. Speaking reasonably rationally, able and willing to eat and drink and swallow tablets and other medicine – had he needed it.

10.00 – 12.00 (exact time not noted)
He was seen by Nursing Sister J D Lawrie. She set up the first syringe-driver containing Diamorphine and Haloperidol, and left. (One of the effects of Haloperidol is to make the patient agitated). One thing is certain. Ralph Winstanley was not complaining of any sickness. He was not being sick. He was not fetching up any blood. Yet that was what this nurse was being told. It is also what the other nurses were told.

18.37
Nina Anne Clayton rang the Twilight nurses. They rang Danum Doctors Services Limited and spoke to
Dr Jonathan Bundy, (also of Field Road Surgery, Stainforth). He recorded:

‘Twilight Nurses calling’
‘C/O started on syringe-driver today. Aggitated, trying to pull catheter out.’
‘Previous advice #50210 on 18-Apr-2004 06.18’
‘18.59 18-Apr-2004 diagnosis entered’
‘Midazolam 10mg/2ml x 10’
‘Haloperidol 5mg/ml x 10’
‘Twilight will phone when assessed’

Dr Jonathan Bundy also did not see ‘the patient’.

However, it seems that it was actually Dr Kevin Lee who ‘completed the authorisation letter’, looking in the British National Formulary under ‘terminal agitation’.

In his letter of 18th May 2004 Dr Kevin Lee states,

‘At no time did any of the doctors at DDS act unlawfully and there was never any intent to end Mr Winstanley’s life. He was a man with multiple terminal pathologies who had already received a terminal prognosis by his own GP and the medications supplied to Mr Winstanley were for symptom control.’

(I would be interested to be told whether the condition of ‘being alive’, is a symptom which needs to be controlled.)

Willing Nursing Sisters and Registered General Nurses saw to it that the job was done, that ‘the patient ‘ was ‘comfortable’, that the morphine-by-mouth which ‘the patient’ had been forced to take – for no discernable reason, following a visit to his friendly local GP, Dr David J Brown, of Field Road Surgery, Stainforth, four days before - was still given to ‘the patient’ to sup as the other drugs took effect, moving him unwillingly into unconsciousness.

21.00
He was seen by RGN K Watts. She added an injection of Midazolam to his drugs cocktail, and left.

23.45
He was seen by RGN B Shannon - who arrived with C Morris – and claimed to have set up a second syringe driver containing Midazolam. That is not true, as the second syringe driver was not set up until the following day. She injected him with Midazolam.

19.04.2004

09.10
He was seen by RGN PA Jones, who refilled the only syringe-driver and notes that he was still being given morphine-by-mouth. She arrived with someone who seems to be called P Fenely – (though I am not certain whether that name is accurate)

14.50
District Nursing Sister Julie Marshall
, from his local GP Practice, (and four doors up the road) arrived for the first time. She seems to have set up the second syringe-driver because she notes that they are both working satisfactorily.

At around the same time, Dr Rachel Sykes, of Field Road Surgery, Stainforth, arrived. This was the first time that Ralph Winstanley was seen by a doctor, following Nina Anne Clayton’s dramatic call for help with her ‘terminally ill’ husband who also had ‘heart failure’. (Neither of these statements was true, as his medical and hospital records show).

When Ralph Winstanley was finally seen by any doctor, (Dr Rachel S Sykes), he had had an accumulation of Oramorph, taken orally; Diamorphine, Haloperidol and Midazolam which were going into him by syringe driver; and an assortment of booster injections of these drugs.

He certainly didn’t look well, by the time Dr Rachel S Sykes popped in. He was heavily drugged – and struggling to live. (He looked very ill - but who wouldn’t look ill, with such a drugs load going into them?)

17.00
District Nursing Sister Julie Marshall
reappeared, alone, to refill both syringe-drivers.

21.30
RGN Lorna Clark, the Hospice-at-Home Nurse
arrived, to be with Ralph Winstanley and his family for the night. She and his younger daughter kept each other company talking over much of the night. She was made aware of the problems within the family and that both his daughters were aware that lies were being told about him to the nurses.

Both daughters asked her about the advisability of nursing him bolt upright.

23.10
RGN J Hopkinson
arrived, with Nursing Assistant J Ellis. She checked that the syringe-drivers were working well.

20.04.2004

07.00
RGN Lorna Clark
left.

11.50
District Nursing Sister Julie Marshall
arrived with RGN S Grimshaw. They refilled the syringe-drivers, and claim to have checked his pressure areas, though he was left sitting up as he had been for 48 hours. He was not washed.

14.00
District Nursing Sister Julie Marshall
returned alone, increasing the Diamorphine in the syringe-driver, at Dr Rachel S Sykes request. She notes that ‘his daughter’. ‘expressed extreme concern’ about his treatment. This is the point in the nursing record, where there is duplication of notes, which do, not tie in together. It appears that notes were made when the file disappeared after Ralph Winstanley’s death. The altered notes seem to be in District Nursing Sister Julie Marshall’s handwriting.

He was trying, in his badly drug-befuddled state to pull out the syringe-driver needles. Dr Rachel S Sykes, a ‘medical expert’ in these matters, decided that he had ‘terminal agitation’, so she increased the drugs load, until it finally made him unconscious.

20.00-22.00 (time not recorded but remembered by Ralph Winstanley’s daughters to have been after 20.00 and probably around 20.15)
District Nursing Sister S Edgeware arrived, helped us to find the source of his obvious pain, and then tried to sit him upright again, on a large pressure sore. It was on the base of his spine and across both buttocks. It was just about to burst. She objected when his daughters insisted that he was lain down instead and then nursed two hours either side. Her notes do not reflect those objections.

21.30
RGN Lorna Clark, the Hospice-at-Home Nurse,
arrived to night-sit. She checked his syringe drivers and began pressure area care. She and his younger daughter again spent most of the night talking. They turned him every two hours. She expressed surprise that he had not died by then, though that is not written in the nursing notes. Ralph Winstanley’s younger daughter was distressed and was stating openly that she did not believe that her father had been dying. His elder daughter also stated that.

21.04.2004

07.00
RGN Lorna Clark
left.

11.00
District Nursing Sister Julie Marshall
and RGN S Grimshaw arrived to check and refill both syringe-drivers.

15.00
District Nursing Sister Julie Marshall
and RGN S Grimshaw came back again.

20.15
RGN K Watts
arrived to check syringe-drivers. Ralph Winstanley had been completely unconscious for more than 24 hours at this point. When Nina Clayton was still stating to RGN K Watts – over his completely still body – that he was in terrible pain being dreadfully sick and fetching up blood, his two daughters took exception to it.

His elder daughter pointed out that he was completely unconscious and showing no signs of anything except breathing. She pointed out that there was no smell of sickness in the room. RGN K Watts insisted that they all move out of the room. His younger daughter fetched the black bucket, which had been used as receptacle for spit - and for tissues which he had been spitting into, before being rendered unconscious. There was no smell of sickness about it. They went through those tissues and it was pointed out to RGN K Watts, that he had not been dying before the drugs were pushed into him. Her response, was to get the day staff to review the situation.

21.30
RGN Lorna Clark, the Hospice-at-Home Nurse,
arrived for the night. She was even more surprised to see that he was still alive. As a hospice-at-home nurse she was used to nursing dying patients. She expressed her surprise and again spent the night talking to Ralph Winstanley’ younger daughter. Together they turned him every two hours and RGN Clark was made aware they both of Ralph Winstanley’s daughters thought that their father was being killed when he hadn’t been dying.

22.04.2004

07.00
RGN Lorna Clark
left.
She reported back to Hospice-at-Home organiser, Val Derks, who recorded no more than that there was ‘severe family friction’. When asked to, Val Derks, Lead Palliative Care Nurse spoke to Ralph Winstanley’s elder daughter and assured her that of course her father was dying. She recorded this in her notes, which are dated wrongly, (possibly because they were all written up after Ralph Winstanley’s death?)

11.30
District Nursing Sister Julie Marshall
and RGN S Grimshaw arrived to refill the syringe-drivers

12.30
District Nursing Sister Julie Marshall
arrived again. She made a note that Dr Rachel S Sykes was due to visit in the afternoon to reassess Ralph Winstanley’s condition.

11.30
District Nursing Sister Julie Marshall
seems to have been able to turn the clock back by arriving again at 11.30 on the same day, after she had already been at 12.30 – which is very interesting.

11.30
RGN Kathryn Clinton arrived with RGN Grimshaw. They note that his elder daughter has asked for a second opinion.

15.00
District Nursing Sister Julie Marshall and RGN S Grimshaw
arrived. For the first time they recorded the extent of pressure sore damage. They made claims that:

‘Ralph assisted to be turned on his left side’.

(That is a strange way of putting it, since he had been completely unconscious for around 48 hours by that time. This note makes it appear that he could help himself at that point, which he certainly could not).

17.00
Exhausted, by 5 nights with very little sleep, and feeling that there was little more they could do, Ralph Winstanley’s two daughters went home to Wath to sleep.

20.30
District Nursing Sister ME Andrews
arrived with RGN K Watts. (This was the first time that his sheets were changed).

22.00
CNN Nurse Brenda Rigo
arrived for the night. She was told that Rosemary Alice Cheesman was Ralph Winstanley’s daughter, (which she is not).

23.04.2004

07.00
CNN Nurse Brenda Rigo
left.

10.00
By 10am District Nursing Sister Julie Marshall had arrived with RGN S Grimshaw.
Before 11.00 Dr Rachel S Sykes and Dr Gillian Harding, Medical Director of St John’s Hospice, had arrived.

11.00
Both of Ralph Winstanley’s own daughters arrived. His younger daughter was assaulted by Nina Anne Clayton and Dr Gillian Harding advanced on his elder daughter to throw her out of the room where her father, though unconscious, was still alive.

They both went out of the room to wait in the Conservatory, thinking that Dr Gillian Harding was the ‘specialist second opinion’, which they had asked for.

In fact Dr Gillian Harding was sailing under false colours. She was not specialist and not on the Specialists Register. She had experience in helping people with palliative care and in helping them to die. She did not state that she was not a specialist in the disease which she assured Ralph Winstanley’s two daughters he was dying of.

She assured them several times that he was definitely dying of 'oesophageal and stomach cancer'. Ralph Winstanley’s elder daughter wrote this down as she said it.
Dr Rachel S Sykes also assured them that he was 'dying of oesophageal cancer'. She had been saying that for several days.

(Both of these women were lying).

Dr Gillian Harding wrote in the Nursing Notes ‘advanced CLL’ (chronic lymphocytic leukaemia). (That was just not true). She also wrote ‘unconscious for three days’ without stating that the drugs-cocktail was responsible for that unconsciousness.

Ralph Winstanley’s Doncaster Royal Infirmary notes and the letter written by his specialist, Consultant Haematologist, Dr Majumdar of Doncaster Royal Infirmary on 8th March 2006, state that Ralph Winstanley’s chronic lymphocytic leukaemia was

‘under reasonable control’

and

‘responsive to treatment’.

Surely his own Consultant Haematologist, Dr Majumdar, who had been treating him since 1998 should know what he is writing about? So why did these two women lie?

Was it because they were both aware that he had not been dying –
or was it because neither of them had bothered to check his medical notes –
or was it some combination of the two?

How was Dr David J Brown involved? After all, he was ‘on leave’ that week, wasn’t he?

A - No, he was signing prescriptions in his surgery on the day before Ralph Winstanley died.
That is in Ralph Winstanley’s Medical Notes

B - He had made a definite note in Ralph Winstanley’s Medical Records, which said
‘ca oesophagus’ (cancer of the oesophagus).

That note was made on 15th March, when Dr David J Brown certainly knew, following two endoscopies with biopsies, (13th January & 10th March 2004), that Ralph Winstanley definitely did not have either oesophageal or stomach cancer.

C As Ralph Winstanley was recovering from his latest chemotherapy, which kept his chronic lymphocytic leukaemia ‘under reasonable control' because it was ‘responsive to treatment’.

Dr David J Brown, with the help of Nina Anne Clayton, was giving him Oramorph (morphine-by-mouth), every 4 hours. That prescription was made out on 14th April 2004, for no discernable reason. Ralph Winstanley was not complaining of any pain. Following his chemotherapy, which had probably ended on 11th April 2004, he was trying to recover and regain his appetite.

i Morphine stops people from wanting to eat.

ii Morphine also leaves the patient awake and active, but a bit of a pushover, should anyone want to stick syringe-driver needles into him.

Ralph Winstanley had been:

a made unconscious in front of his own two daughters, when he had not been dying nor expecting to die nor asking to die.

b kept unconscious through his daughters’ protestations; and through their many requests for help, made firstly to the nurses and then to Dr Rachel Sykes and then to Dr Tony Baxter, Director of Public Health at Doncaster East Primary Care Trust.

c his daughters believe, flushed out with water on the morning of Friday 23rd April 2004, before he finally died.

d deliberately kept unconscious until he was dead.

That is murder, no matter how many people were involved in it.

When Ralph Winstanley’s elder daughter, in some desperation, rang and spoke to Dr Tony Baxter, Director of Public Health at Doncaster East Primary Care Trust, he sent her straight back to Dr David J Brown, who had originally prescribed the morphine-by-mouth, for no discernable cause, four days before Nina Anne Clayton had decided that Ralph Winstanley would now die. No, that is not quite true. Dr David J Brown had also decided that Ralph Winstanley would die, whilst he was ‘on leave’. He wrote that down.

I have a copy of his Statement. It is dated, 16th May 2004. He states,

‘I was so struck by his continued deterioration and the likeliness of his imminent demise..’

He also comments in that Statement, about:

‘ ..his underlying lower oesophageal malignancy’

In a letter written to Mr Jonathan Goodwin, of solicitors, Bridge Sanderson Munro on 28th May 2004, Dr David J Brown wrote about:

'problems relating to chest and epigastric pain which was found to be due to cancer growing around his lower oesophagus and stomach.’

Also, in a letter, which Dr David J Brown wrote to Mrs Elizabeth Hedge, Complaints Manager, Doncaster East Primary Care Trust, on 1st June 2004, he comments:

‘Those involved in his final days were in full agreement regarding the malignant cancerous nature of his underlying problems.’

and

‘..especially the terminally ill like Mr Winstanley’

(See Dr Majumdar’s letter below.)

Dr Rachel S Sykes wrote to Mrs Elizabeth Hedge on 24th May 2004. In her letter, she stated:

‘Dr Brown was treating him for probable oesophageal malignancy and was due on holiday the next week. Dr Brown’s diagnosis was based on Mr Winstanley having had 2 endoscopies and was under a Consultant Gastroenterologist. At endoscopy a lesion was seen at the cardio-oesophageal junction and the likely diagnosis was malignancy. He was concerned with the deterioration in Mr Winstanley and fearful that he would die whilst he was away.’

(So it seems that Dr Rachel S Sykes now had the impression that the second endoscopy/biopsy, had returned the results that he had a malignancy of the oesophagus. On what evidence did she base that opinion? His second endoscopy/biopsy result had shown that he did not have a problem in his oesophagus or stomach.)

Ralph Winstanley’s daughters, having begged for a specialist second opinion about their father’s state of health, Dr Tony Baxter, Director of Public Health, Doncaster East Primary Care Trust, provided Dr Gillian Harding(who didn’t bother to turn up for over 24 hours).

However, on the day Ralph Winstanley finally died, Dr Gillian Harding, Medical Director of St John’s Hospice, (and specialist in – what?) helping the chronically and terminally ill with Palliative and Terminal care, came as the ‘specialist second opinion’, which Ralph Winstanley’s daughters had begged for.

For six long days and nights they had been told that Ralph Winstanley was ‘dying of oesophageal and stomach cancer’.

Dr Rachel Sykes had assured them of that.
Dr Gillian Harding also assured them of that.
Val Derks, Hospice-at-Home Lead Nurse, assured them of that.

So why wasn’t the ‘specialist second opinion’ from someone who had been involved in Ralph Winstanley’s diagnosis and treatment for this ‘oesophageal and stomach cancer'?

Why wasn’t his Consultant Gastroenterologist, Dr Gary James, of Doncaster Royal Infirmary, asked to give an opinion?

The problem was that there was no oesophageal or stomach cancer.

Ralph Winstanley’s post mortem, performed only three days after his death, had shown the Home Office Pathologist, Professor Helen Whitwell, that Ralph Winstanley did not have either oesophageal or stomach cancer.

Her Pathology Report, produced finally, ten months later, stated nothing about oesophageal or stomach cancer.

Ralph Winstanley, having been given no food or fluid, through the April heatwave, for his four long days and nights of unconsciousness, had struggled enough. His heart, strong for a man of his age, as his hospital records show, finally gave out at 3pm on Friday 23rd April 2004.

Curiously he seemed, during the two hours after the Nurses and Doctors left, to have been flooded with fluid. He was pushing out fluid with every breath. He seemed to be drowning in it.

At post-mortem it was also found that his weight had dramatically increased - by 2 stones and 2 pounds.

Following his death, his daughters and his sons then began the long and treacherous road to justice for their father and their family. It is not over yet.

A large number of people, over the past two years, have refused to do their job. Instead, they have indulged in an overwhelming cover-up of murder.

Two Chief Constables of South Yorkshire Police Force, Michael Hedges and Meredydd Hughes, have refused to undertake an investigation into how Ralph Winstanley met his death. However, since they have been presented with more than adequate evidence, to show that he was murdered, those two Chief Constables are, apart from not doing the job for which the public pays them, now implicated as
Accessories After the Fact of Murder.

Her Majesty’s Coroner ES Hooper, of South Yorkshire East District, has refused to ask that a full police investigation should take place in spite of his being presented with more than adequate evidence to show that Ralph Winstanley was murdered. That makes him an Accessory After the Fact of Murder.

When Eric Stanley Hooper recused himself, and passed on the case to someone else, it was done in a secretive and collusive way, at that person’s home. An email sent from his office states that he:

‘..proposes sending to the new coroner only the core of the file, and most definitely not sending to that new coroner your allegations about a very large number of people.’

The person to whom he passed on the case is a man called Paul Kelly.

Eric Stanley Hooper and Paul Kelly have known each other for more than 20 years, as the Coroner’s staff at Cleethorpes informed Ralph Winstanley’s daughters.

Paul Kelly is President of the Family Health Service Appeals Authority.

His name appears nowhere on the web site in which Mr J Stewart Atkinson, HM Coroner, North Lincs and Grimsby District states the name of his Deputy Coroner is (David Overton), and of his Assistant Deputy Coroner, (Andrew Pascoe). In a very informative document he lists the general wonderfulness of his Coronal Services, few of which ‘benefits’ my family has experienced. Nowhere does he mention Paul Kelly.

On speaking to a member of the Law and Democratic Service staff, at North Lincs, on 13th March 2006, that man, Gary Ward, didn’t even recognise Paul Kelly’s name.

The Coroner’s staff, at North Lincs and Grimsby District, variously refer to Paul Kelly as ‘Assistant Deputy Coroner’ and ‘Deputy Coroner’. Which is it? He can’t be both. Is he either?

Even the Judge at the Court of Administration seems not to know.
However, that is beside the point. Whatever he is, Paul Kelly has been in charge of my father’s Inquest.

He was put in charge of it, presumably, by HM Coroner, North Lincs and Grimsby District. They have both worked at same solicitor’s practice, Sergeant & Collins of Scunthorpe. Paul Kelly was a Partner there, before he went to Hong Kong. More recently, Mr J Stewart Atkinson is believedto have been a Consultant, at the same firm. Andrew Pascoe also works there.

So is this a case of ‘getting a ‘mate’ in’?

More to the point, this man Paul Kelly consistently refused to deal adequately with the concerned family of Ralph Winstanley.

At the Pre-Inquest review, he made an odd decision that none of the nurses or Specialists who were involved in Ralph Winstanley’s care, would need to answer any questions – or be called at all - at the Inquest.

When the day of the Inquest arrived, he would not allow any of the family witnesses to state what had happened to their father/grandfather, though he had fully sworn Affidavits, which were entirely and directly relevant to Ralph Winstanley's death, from several of them.

He did not ask for evidence from Dr Kevin Lee or from Dr Majumdar. When Ralph Winstanley’s family tried to ask questions he shut them up. Does that make, Paul Kelly an Accessory After the Fact of Murder?

And where does Mr J Stewart Atkinson stand in this? He must have agreed that his friend Paul Kelly should run Ralph Winstanley’s Inquest, when he knew that he had a legal duty, as Her Majesty’s Coroner, to run it himself.

The entire Boards of Directors and Executives of two Primary Care Trusts and one NHS Trust have deliberately hidden evidence, and are thus implicated as Accessories After the Fact of Murder.

Matters of Concern

If all those people are prepared to cover up the death of one fleeced old man, how many other unwelcome deaths are they covering up?

This is a copy of the letter from Ralph Winstanley’s Consultant Haematologist, Dr Majumdar. The (ho-ho) 'Assistant Deputy Coroner', Paul Kelly brought in an Inquest verdict that Ralph Winstanley had died of ‘chronic lymphocytic leukaemia’ and ‘natural causes’. (not sure what planet this man seems to be on but it seem to be a planet with little common sense). Dr Majumdar does not seem to agree with Paul Kelly.




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